Posted on 07/04/2008 10:12:36 PM PDT by Kaslin
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Retired Gen. Wesley Clark, whose stock as Sen. Barack Obama's possible vice presidential running mate had been rising, may have ruined his chances with his belittling attack on Sen. John McCain's war record.
Clark, along with other Obama surrogates, followed the campaign's line of downgrading McCain's performance as a Vietnam War POW. But Clark was particularly insulting. ("I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.") He also got more attention by appearing on CBS's "Face the Nation," while other surrogates addressed campaign gatherings.
A footnote: Clark had been considered the leading former military officer to compensate for Obama's lack of national security experience because his performance steadily improved during an unsuccessful campaign for the 2004 presidential nomination. Two retired Marine generals also mentioned for vice president, Anthony Zinni and James Jones, lack any political experience.
Romney Rising
Mitt Romney's surge toward the Republican vice presidential nomination was boosted at last month's Texas state party convention in Houston.
Romney, the predominant conservative choice to be Sen. John McCain's running mate, was pleasantly surprised to encounter a paid audience of about 3,500 for a Republican fundraising dinner. He received a standing ovation after delivering a conservative stemwinder.
A footnote: Vice presidential prospects for Bobby Jindal, the 37-year-old first-year governor of Louisiana, suffered when he vetoed a pay raise for state legislators after promising them he would sign it. However, conservative anti-tax activist Grover Norquist, who has boosted Jindal for the ticket, said the veto made him stronger. GAS PRICE POLITICS
When Chairman David Obey announced before the Fourth of July break that he was shutting down his House Appropriations Committee's consideration of money bills, House Republican leaders felt they had the Democratic majority on the run over soaring gas prices.
The committee was considering the Labor-HHS appropriation when ranking Republican Jerry Lewis offered the Interior money bill as an amendment to force a vote on oil drilling. "As far as I'm concerned," Obey said as he adjourned the committee, charging Republican obstructionism, "they've had their shot."
Democrats do not want to vote on increased oil drilling, which gets a high rating from voters as a means of eventually reducing prices at the gas pump. OBAMA'S GOP LOBBYIST
The Republican lobbyist who was solicited for contributions by Sen. Barack Obama's presidential campaign a month ago has received a second request for money from the Democratic presidential candidate, who has banned lobbyist money from supporting his candidacy. The second try was made after no response to the first attempt. As did the first solicitation, the second letter signed by Obama asked the veteran Republican donor and fundraiser for a contribution "to change the way business is done in Washington."
The lobbyist's only contributions to Democrats have been to two powerful committee chairmen -- John Dingell (Energy and Commerce) and Charlie Rangel (Ways and Means) -- in order to open their doors to his clients. The lobbyist figures that the Obama campaign lifted his name from Dingell and/or Rangel money lists.
"COBURN OMNIBUS"
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid may trigger a parliamentary brawl in the Senate late in July if he goes through with his threat to bundle some 100 spending bills being blocked by Republican Sen. Tom Coburn into one "Coburn omnibus."
Coburn has held up the bills to stop the practice of passing legislation without amendments or debates. If Reid uses the same tactics on the combined bill, Coburn is threatening to tie up the Senate with parliamentary tactics. "I'd welcome the opportunity to spend weeks debating wasteful Washington spending and Congress' misplaced priorities," said Coburn.
How much Coburn can do depends on whether Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell and other Republican colleagues support him to prevent Reid from getting 60 votes needed to close debate on the "Coburn omnibus."
Well, I have to agree with Clark’s conclusion that what McCain endured does not make him a hero. It may very well make him unfit to be the president.
Of course Osama/Obama isn’t qualified to shine McCain’s boots...
What?
McCain is a war hero...there is no doubt about that....and Obama couldn’t run a candy store.
I might slam some of his decisions and policies, but I'll never trash his service to our country.
And even with my general dislike of McCain's politics, there's no comparing him to Obama. Obama is a clueless, arrogant Marxist IMO. I shudder to think of him getting near the White House.
What did McCain do in the military that was heroic? I take it you were never in the military?
Assuming he didn’t spill his guts to his captors, that’s what every PRIVATE is expected to do. That’s not heroic, that’s just following standing orders.
Least you ask, yes I was there...
“There are a lot of things I don’t like about McCain (and I mean a lot), but I admire him for his military service.”
So do I, however that doesn’t make him a hero because he served... Millions served and 50,000 died. Some of those were heros. Most of us were just following orders and doing our jobs.
Imagine the uproar if McCain said that Kerry’s service consisted of “riding in a boat and bumping his head.”
Ditto!
What McCain did while a POW showed tremendous character and loyalty, but there was really nothing heroic about it.
Well, let's see .....
Pressing home low level bombing attacks against heavily defended targets might be considered heroic by some.
"Although his aircraft was severely damaged, he continued his bomb delivery pass and released his bombs on the target. When the aircraft would not recover from the dive, Commander McCain was forced to eject over the target." ..... citation for McCain's Distinguished Flying Cross
But, "you were there". Tell us what that was like to make a low level bombing run against a heavily defended target.
Staying a POW for an additional 5 years of torture because you refused to be released early might be considered heroic by some.
But, "you were there". Tell us what that was like to be tortured as a POW. What was the longest torture session that you endured?
Were you ever a POW of the North Vietnamese?
You must have been because, as you claimed, "you were there".
Bud Day disagrees with you.
Had his teeth knocked out at the gums and his arms broken. I'd like to see anyone NOT give in to torture like that. It just doesn't happen. Everyone has their breaking point.
I seem to hear from you that you are a veteran and you also imply that you are a Vietnam veteran. If so, I'm proud of you but your statement about McCain's service is small-hearted and asinine.
First of all, volunteering during the Vietnam war was noble to begin with - we had a culture during that period that encouraged having a darn good time and avoiding responsibility, so those men that joined to serve in the war were a "cut above" to start with.
Second, serving as an attack pilot that flew from aircraft carriers off the coast of North Vietnam was really dangerous stuff and every flight inland was going against the toughest antiaircraft fire in history. The young men that volunteered for that duty were heroes among heroes.
Third, John McCain was severely injured and nearly died when his plane was hit and he ejected then landed in that Hanoi lake. By all accounts of his fellow prisoners, he served with honor and courage - and refused early return to home and medical treatment ahead of the others. 5 years in those scummy hell-holes under continual mistreatment and even torture requires guts most people can't even guess at. John McCain was and is a hero by any definition.
Now as for us Vietnam veterans just "doing a job" and "following orders", I will differ with you further. For any of us in Vietnam, fear was a daily factor. Even if you were a mess cook at a relatively safe base, you knew that the enemy could hit you anywhere you were and you had to do what you had to do with the possibility of a rocket or mortar round or a sniper's shot wherever you were. Everybody also had to deal with the heat, the bugs, the mystery sicknesses, and the high probability that your wife or girlfriend would be with someone else long before you got back home.
For those of us with the infantry, it was far more than dangerous - it was a daily certainty that you would be killed or mutilated in wild firefights or by the thousands of mines and boobytraps. I never met one Marine infantryman that wasn't wounded at least once during their tour in Vietnam, not one.
Calling Vietnam service "just a job" is deeply insulting and you should know it.
Flying a jet in war, being shot down and spending time in a prisoner of war camp is qualification for being an American hero.
It is not qualification for being president. It might be a sign that the candidate has some of the traits to do a good job, but not automatic qualification.
Still....Clark is a piece fo crap. He didnt do a good job while he was in the military, what makes him qualified to speak about McCain except that they are both assholes.
Most likely not.
“Had his teeth knocked out at the gums and his arms broken. I’d like to see anyone NOT give in to torture like that. It just doesn’t happen. Everyone has their breaking point.”
With 50 thousand dead in the war, getting your teeth knocked out and your arms broken is mild. Not giving in to torture was what was EXPECTED from our armed forces during that era. Every recruit fully understood that.
IMHO, the term “hero” has been watered down to the extent that it is meaningless. Heros go above and beyond the call of duty and put their lives on the line to protect their comrades. There were thousand who did that during the war, and most did not come back.
McCain served and he deserves credit for that. However someone who did what was expected of him does not make him a hero, It makes him a GI. To call him a hero discredits those who were really heros.
Ah Yes Ole Maggot Infected Weasel Clark, the perfumed pink panty wearing pentagon poster boy of the Clintoons, aka the killer of innocent Americans civilians at Waco and innocent Christian civilians in Serbia.
Clark is shown below enjoying a gay happy moment, with no socks while being very light in his loafers!”
I am the real thing, not some poseur that claims to be a Vietnam veteran. Unless you can answer me directly, I would recommend keeping your trap shut about Vietnam service and what "GIs were expected to do".
And grammar school graduates know that the plural of hero is "heroes"..add that to your spell checker, poseur.
You can make all the comments you want about McCain's politics that you want but you cross the line when you attack him based on his time in captivity in Viet Nam.
So, I take it you were not in the military... You seem to prefer the watered down definition of hero.
“You can make all the comments you want about McCain’s politics that you want”
I didn’t comment on McCain’s politics other than to say that Obama wasn’t qualified to shine his boots.
Also, I very much appreciate his service, I just don’t consider him a hero. I also don’t consider Kerry a hero for getting rice stuck in his butt, or Bob Dole a hero for getting shot down and injured.
By the way, who refers to himself as serving in the "military" anyway? I am proud to have served as a United States Marine and my father and uncles were proud to have served in the army in the Second World War.
You must be one of those sad people that spends time running down real heroes without actually enduring anything yourself. I doubt very seriously that you ever were tortured or even wounded, otherwise you would have learned some respect.
The only qualifications are you have to be an American citizen, born here, above a certain age, and with no felony convictions I believe.
there is a big diffference in qualifications and "best qualified".
BTW serving in the military doesnt mean your the best by any means. Many many many killers rapists and thieves also served in the military.
At the time I was staying at the based comanders ahouse at Subic Bay as an exchange student with his son. He woke me in the middle the south china sea to be loaded with evacuees, which ende up being my father.
Granted Mcain was a hero, but now a backstabbing pieced of crap member of the gang of 14. I will vote for him but so reluctantly it makes me want to spit. There are and were many much better "heroes".
Dont know how that got cut out.
I personally believe that serving in combat is an enormous qualifyer for someone who wants to be elected President. A man who makes it in that type of highly-stressed environment and survives has proven two things:
That they are willing to put everything they have including their lives on the line for their country.
They they can survive the crucible of combat and heal themselves from the physical and mental burdens that came from warfare.
Obviously, not everyone can or should serve in combat and we can't always find the right people from that pool of survivors. All the same, when you do get one that has proven himself, I believe that he's a better candidate than someone that could have served and didn't.
It was terminally stupid for Clark to make the statements he made. All he would have had to say was that McCain has an excellent military record but his policies for fixing America are wrong. Instead the fool directly disparaged McCain’s military service. Terminally stupid.
“By the way, who refers to himself as serving in the “military” anyway?”
Since I couldn’t have known which branch you might have served in, how would you have me phrase it?
I served in Vietnam as well, and didn’t get injured. Are you suggesting YOU are a hero because you were? You are due a debt of gratitude for serving your country, as are all who have served.
BTW, did you get a Purple Heart, or a Bronze or Silver Star? Just curious... Of course, Bronze or Silver Stars would have a bit more meaning if you were an enlisted man.
But the rest of his story, how he lived the rest of his life also indicates that McCain will not care about his conservative base, or the will of those he serves. He has shown he will cross the aisle, conspire with evil people with complete disregard for those who voted him into office.
Think about the financial scandals he barely weathered, think about the gang of 14 and the judges we lost, not to mention because of his inept way of running this campaign he might just give the damn thing away.
Thats my gut feeling, I resent having to vote for him.
I have the Purple Heart and a Bronze Star with "V"...Got them all at once. There were a number of wounded in the open that were being fired at and I was the closest to them - I went and dragged the one that seemed to be the worst hit to cover and was hit just as I got the edge of cover. Shattered my right thigh.
I was a Lance Corporal back then with Golf Company, 2/1. The good part is that the guy I went to get survived and I got to attend his oldest daughter's wedding a few years ago.
Actually, you're to hold out for "as long as you are able".
Realistically, what you know becomes out of date afte 72 hours.
So if you can hold out for 3 days, the information you have will have changed, and should no longer endanger troops.
As for not spiiling you guts...try it sometime. Then get back to me.
So... I salute you. If you dragged someone to cover risking your life YOU are a hero. Just getting shot or killed or having your arms broken doesn’t do it for me...
U.S. Navy awarded McCain a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars, two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service medals. (me - I was lucky, just the service medals)
Please point out to me what McCain did that was heroic. Something in the nature of dragging someone to cover as you did.
If John McCain had made a deal to come home early, he would have been up for a court martial. That’s hardly heroic. He did what was honorable... Any less and he wouldn’t have deserved an honorable discharge.
“Actually, you’re to hold out for “as long as you are able”.”
That’s not the way it was in the NAVY in ‘62. When did you serve? (Air Force?) I don’t believe it was different in the Navy. Hell, I held out doing Quarterdeck duty longer than that...
Please post the regs for POW's in '62.
"When did you serve? (Air Force?)"
78-81 Army. 11B Airborne Infantry w/82nd.
"Hell, I held out doing Quarterdeck duty longer than that..."
I'm impressed. Must have been torture for you.
“Actually, you’re to hold out for “as long as you are able”
Hell, that could have been 5 seconds. Did they have to say “pretty please” first?
I don’t believe that’s what they expected of you. Even in ‘78.
Rather than saying what I think, I'll just say, "Thank you for your service."
So you served in the Navy in 1962.
If you didn’t set foot on Vietnam soil, maybe you didn’t serve.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2038634/posts
But you go ahead and disparage McCain all you want.
It’s a free country. For now.
I salute John McCain for resisting the enemy (and supporting his fellow prisoners) for 5 1/2 long years of some of the most miserable, inhuman, and brutal treatment and human being ever did to another. He could have easily accepted some deal with the enemy - his arms and leg were broken, he was infected, his bones were unset and he was in agony - he didn't. He was a senior admiral's son and the enemy was drooling to use him as a shill. Nobody would have court-martialled him for coming home early - hell, we didn't even charge Jane Fonda with treason!
He suffered every day, day after day for 2,000 days and yet he was a source of strength to his fellow prisoners and helped every one he could get in contact with.
He deserves his medals and I'm proud of him and the guys like him that suffered under those inhuman bastards.
Everyone of us can disagree with his political decisions. We can question his marital situations. We can even argue with him man-to-man.
But nobody can question that he is a man that undergone some of the most severe suffering any man has ever gone through for us and done us proud.
I hope he is elected as our president - it would be a wonderful thing to have a man like him to represent us, our country.
“But you go ahead and disparage McCain all you want.”
I’m not disparaging McCain for his military service. I haven’t disparaged hi at all in this thread.
As I said in my first post on this thread, Obama is not qualified to shine his boots...
However, I do consider McCain a RINO. I am disappointed that he is the republican candidate. I view him as being to the right of Obama and slightly to the left of Hillary. As for their party... All three are liberals, regardless of the party they are affiliated with.
“I hope he is elected as our president - it would be a wonderful thing to have a man like him to represent us, our country.”
I would grant you that he would be better than Obama/Osama. However I don’t consider him a conservative... He’s a RINO.
“I hope he is elected as our president - it would be a wonderful thing to have a man like him to represent us, our country.”
I would grant you that he would be better than Obama/Osama. However I don’t consider him a conservative... He’s a RINO.
Bob Dole wasn't "shot down"!
Since you got this obvious fact WRONG, everything else you say is suspicious.
FYI - "- In April of 1945, while engaged in combat in the hills of northern Italy, he was hit by German machine gun fire in his upper right back. His right arm was also badly injured. He had to wait nine hours on the battlefield before being taken to the 15th Evacuation Hospital.-
“Since you got this obvious fact WRONG, everything else you say is suspicious.”
I guess it would have been obvious had I googled it like you did. It’s beside the point... You have to do something heroic to be a hero. Now, Bob Dole might have and so might have Kerry. But merely being injured or even killed is not enough.
Sorry Charley, you loose on this one...
About time, too! If there's one thing that annoys me about our Republican Party, they tend to forward candidates that are businessmen or lawyers and avoid advancing veterans. They talk a good game about supporting the troops...
They usually are leagues ahead of the treasonous Democrats but the leadership of the Party tends to favor making money over service to the nation, IMHO.
Gen. Clark spends one month in Nam(he was medivaced out after being wounded) and he “thinks” he has the right to judge anyone who spent 5 and half years in the Hanoi Hilton.
My favorite adage applies to Clark “Better to keep your mouth closed and let others think you a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”
I have a lot of problems with McCain on different issues but I will NEVER criticize his military service.
Semper Fi,
Kelly
It's common knowledge, and I didn't need to google to see you're mistake.
Sorry Charley, you loose on this one...
No baby, and the word is 'lose'. Kerry might be a hero, but McCain isn't?
Screw loose, perhaps?
“Kerry might be a hero, but McCain isn’t?”
Either one might be... But not due to rice in the butt or being a prisoner of war.
You don’t mind if I refer to you a jerk do you?
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